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Transcript – Season 3, Episode 4- Burnout & Enneagram with Erin Rocchio – Part 2

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:00:01]:

Allowed. This is one of the things I love about Enneagram, is compassion for self, compassion for other, recognizing that we’re all like in this striving struggle journey. Allowed. You are allowed to be whole. I’m Dr. Kanil joyce. I’m here to affirm that you are not missing anything. Just imagine with me for a moment that you are and always have been enough. You have always been enough. Imagine that allowed. When you were born, you were whole, perfect. And somewhere along the way, you learned that parts of you were not allowed here. What are the pieces of you that you have put into the basement? And how can you reclaim the wholeness that is your birthright? You are allowed to grow. You are allowed to dream. You are allowed to be exactly who you are and to become the next version of who you want to be. Start your journey of exploration with me right now on Aloud. You are allowed to be whole. Welcome back to part two of this special guest episode of Aloud, focusing on the Enneagram and identity. This episode features the brilliant type six, Courtney Smith. Courtney is a dear friend and a deep Enneagram expert, and she is a partner with me in my own personal growth journey as well. So glad to have her back here on the show. In part one, we began our conversation by asking the question of why people get involved with personal growth work to begin with. And we came to the conclusion that people want to become, quote unquote, better. How people try to get better, perform more, produce at a higher rate, is often through growth tools that end up reinforcing the trappings of identity rather than releasing us from those constraints. So let’s jump right back in where we left off and dive into a discussion about a tool that you and I both love, and that’s the Enneagram. More specifically, we’ll talk about how the Enneagram can be useful in this journey of beginning to loosen the grip of identity. I know that Enneagram can play into burnout and also be a guide to moving us away from burnout and into recovery and rest and wholeness. But how have you personally seen and experienced Enneagram personality archetypes relating to burnout?

Erin Rocchio [00:02:31]:

Aaron, you and I have talked about it a lot. Enneagram is, for me, a very profound way of looking at the unconscious drivers that we hold. And I found a lot of patternings based on type. So, like, fours tend to burn out in a particular way. Threes, like myself, burn out in a particular way. And I wanted to give people resources because I don’t hear anybody talking about this.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:02:58]:

And I just want to say for the listeners real quick, if you’re not familiar with anygram yet, then you can go back to Aaron’s episode from yes, it was the first summer of the Pandemic So 2020, and we’ll link to that in the show notes. And that’s where she and I dive into what anygram is and how you can use it in relationships and in teams. And we’ll link to some other Enneagram related resources as well in the show notes, plus all of Aaron’s the tools that she referenced from her website. So, Enigm is an amazing personality system. It’s deeply profound, which is rare to say. It’s super different from anything like the MBTI or Strengths Finder, all of which are fantastic tools. But this one is, it really seems to point to the connection between your ego and your soul’s growth journey. And so it’s a really good map of how you get when you’re reactive and what the path looks like for you to get out of that. And I would say Burnout is connected to reactivity, and it’s connected to the drive our ego has that has us overlook our core needs. So that’s anygram, but we’re going to go forward presuming that you basically know what Enigram is. A lot of the listeners do, yeah. Well said.

Erin Rocchio [00:04:16]:

I loved your description, Kanye. Each of the nine types has their own expression of Burnout. Type ones are often called the reformer, and ones are defined essentially by folks that have a pretty binary view of the world. Like, things are good or bad, right or wrong. They’re really oriented towards goodness and fairness. And part of one’s burnout comes in these perfectionism loops. Like, perfectionism is a difficult trap.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:04:48]:

It’s brutal.

Erin Rocchio [00:04:49]:

I feel like I’m a recovering perfectionist, even though I’m not a one. But some of the intense internal demands and internal criticism that one’s face kind of pushes them into Burnout more quickly. So that’s something to really take a look at for them. Twos are the helper. I have a strong two wings. Sometimes I feel like I’m a two. Twos are so other oriented, and I call them the warm and fuzzy. So they’re like going to love up on everybody around them, which is wonderful, and it feels super good. But the problem that twos get into as it relates to their own well being is that we naturally are not looking at ourselves. We are only looking out there. And it’s just kind of constant neglect of self and so self care. It feels almost selfish for twos to look inward, but that’s actually what we need to restore and renew. So that’s kind of a trap for twos and also kind of their way out. Type three, which is my actual type, is the achiever. And this is kind of a classic. Like, I’m only allowed to rest after I’ve produced and performed. I’ll rest later. Right. And so for threes, there’s kind of the burnout comes from classic workaholism, classic over identification with your work. And honestly, it is my personal practice, Camille, to rest every day because I am wired against it. Yeah, like, pausing between meetings, closing my eyes for five minutes feels sacrilegious to my personality.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:06:30]:

That cannot be easy.

Erin Rocchio [00:06:33]:

And now though I’ve been doing it for quite a number of years. And by the way, little plug there is fabulous work by this woman, Patricia Hershey, and she is the Nap ministry. And everybody should go follow her work because it’s rooted in black liberation theory and she’s just fucking brilliant. And so she encourages me every day through her work to do that type fours, your type get overly indexed around their emotional reality and that’s okay. Hello, emotional exhaustion. It’s like boom, right there, right? The intensity of emotion, the intensity of the ways in which you see the world can easily have a four slip into the despair aspect, right? Am I ringing a bell?

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:07:20]:


Erin Rocchio [00:07:21]:

And so kind of finding healthy boundaries for fours and finding ways to hold emotion and honor it and also have some space around it where it doesn’t take you down, is really powerful and interestingly. Type fives are similar to fours. They’re both deep types. Fours are deep, feelers fives are deep thinkers, right. The investigator, they want to understand everything so they feel a sense of control. They also can over identify with knowledge and knowing and disconnect from their body, disconnect from their relationships that might nourish them. And so there’s benefit to the getting lost in your head. And there’s also a real downside for type five. Sixes, which are the loyalists burn out honestly, quite overtly through anxiety, through the constant activity and doing of mitigating risk and trying to get them to just stop moving, slow down and be present is very difficult because the anxiety is like go, go, do the things, do the things, prevent the bad things, prevent the bad things. And so the mental load that the six will hold for a team, for themselves, for their family is significant. And so that can lead them into burnout seven. The enthusiasts, I call these the adventurers. Their quick thinking is lovely and beautiful and visionary. And they’re also so disconnected from the present moment and they don’t like dealing with pain. They burn out often because they don’t want to acknowledge that things aren’t working. Yeah, I call them my master reframers. Oh, it’s fine. And it’s like sometimes actually you need to just get present to the pain before you can move something differently. So those are the sevens. Apes are the type that are wanting to have control and power over everything. So they challenge what is. They come into the world trying to be strong and own it all. AIDS carry way more burden than they need to. Often they don’t like to admit. And also AIDS have a difficult time asking for help. So they feel like the burden of the world is on their shoulders to hold and they can’t let anybody know that they’re feeling weak or struggling. And so that’s where eights tend to burn out and nines are lovely. Peacemakers often burnout for them is just a continual neglect of their genuine feelings and needs, similar to a tube, but a little bit different because nines are also holding the energy of the whole group. And so the emotional exhaustion for them can also kick in pretty quickly and then they’ll check out. The withdrawal for nines, fours and fives is more acute. And so those types in particular will tend to their own space, but not always in a healthy way. But those are our lovely types and how Burnett can show up for them. I know you want to give everybody a hug. It does.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:10:30]:

I mean, this is one of the things I love about Enneagram, is compassion for self, compassion for other, just recognizing that we’re all in this, we’re all in it. I don’t know, striving, struggle, journey.

Erin Rocchio [00:10:44]:

Yeah. So beautiful. So do you want to do some practice?

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:10:47]:

I sure do.

Erin Rocchio [00:10:48]:


Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:10:49]:

I’ve got my deck here ready to go. And this is so I just really love all of your content, Aaron. The content itself is so rich and well researched, but also the design is so thoughtful and the construction, which is a four, I just relish just touching these beautiful things.

Erin Rocchio [00:11:08]:

Thank you for that. One of my values, and I have a strong four wing, as I do wing, so I appreciate good design. Thank you. I want to make sure everybody knows. So what we’re talking about is the Enneagram and Burnout card deck, and you can get them on my website should say to be specific and.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:11:31]:

We’Ll link to that in the show notes.

Erin Rocchio [00:11:33]:

Yeah. And so one of the things I did with this is I organized practices by Enneagram type, but there’s twelve distinct practices for each type based on mind, body, heart, spirit. So I thought maybe for you and I today, we could practice the self compassion practice for type four. And before I get into that, I just want to also say if you don’t know your Enneagram type or you’re confused, all 108 practice cards are good for you. Like they’re all useful, so don’t think you’re limited to twelve.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:12:05]:

We all have all of the types within us anyway. We just have some that are more dominant.

Erin Rocchio [00:12:11]:

Right? And so sometimes if you really are clear on your type, you read a card and you’re like, oh crap, she got my number, I even find for myself. Going to another type card on certain days is really nourishing. Okay, so for you, my friend, so we’re going to look at self compassion practice called setting clear boundaries for type four. And I’ll read some of this and then I’d love for you to kind of respond and maybe you journal a little bit and then you can kind of let our listeners know what you’re doing. Okay. So the first step here is kind of describing why boundaries, so defining where we end and another person begins is critical to emotional and mental well being. Love that you got your journal. To start, I would like you to reflect on a relationship to a person or in an environment that feels disempowering or taxing, like it’s an energy drain. And then step two is, is there a deeper need or core value you’d like to be honored there but isn’t. So, for example, I need to be seen from my unique perspective.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:13:14]:

This is personal. Yeah.

Erin Rocchio [00:13:17]:


Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:13:18]:

Let me think about this here.

Erin Rocchio [00:13:19]:

While you’re thinking, Kanye, can I talk about the connection values and boundaries?

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:13:23]:


Erin Rocchio [00:13:25]:

There’s a lot out there today about how important setting boundaries is to our health, and a lot of people have brilliant stuff to say about it. It’s a critical component of well being, and I think it is most helpful and most grounding when we connect them to things that we deeply care about. So that when we communicate a boundary, it’s not like people experience it’s clean. There’s no negative thing like, I’m against you, I’m putting a wall up against you. It’s more like, hey, I have a need for just pick one. I have a need for connection. My core value of connection is not getting honored in this way, so I need to actually connect to myself. So I’m going to set a boundary here, and you can use particular language, but when we’re able to connect it to something that matters to us, people can hear us in a particular way.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:14:20]:

Yeah. Great. Okay. I have my issue in mind, and because I’m being coached, I’m going to sit myself down okay. And relax like rest, rest into the support you’re giving me. I love. Thank you so much. I’m going to lower it.

Erin Rocchio [00:14:36]:

Do you feel comfortable sharing or do you want to keep it?

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:14:38]:

Yeah, I’ll share.

Erin Rocchio [00:14:39]:

Okay. Before you share, I want to offer step three, which is in your journal script, out how you might make a clear request to that person or environment that might explain or set a boundary that you need so that your value is honored and recognized. So, for example, I’m going to minimize my time with people who don’t ask for my perspective.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:15:03]:


Erin Rocchio [00:15:04]:

And so step four says, now we can practice communicating your boundary with simple, firm, consistent language. So you don’t need to over explain or share a story about your boundary, but just make a simple, clear request. And then as you do that, and as you practice in real life with this person or people, notice continually how your energy and effectiveness shift in that relationship.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:15:25]:


Erin Rocchio [00:15:26]:

So do you want to share what you saw?

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:15:28]:

Sure. So the area where I’d like to create a boundary, it’s a bit of a combination between a relationship and an environment that feels frustrating or disempowering or taxing. And what it is, is we have been going through some home repairs and not quite a remodel, but some improvements, some decorating, and usually these days I’m working at home, as is my husband, and I work with clients most of the time, and so when I’m with a client, my phone is turned off. I don’t even usually know where it is. I have no other windows open. I’m totally focused on them. I would never take a second of presence away from a client. Yet workers will arrive at random times, random days without warning and ask if I can weigh in on things, like, all throughout the day. And then when I don’t answer my office door, I don’t get to weigh in on it. And then my unique perspective is not being included in the process. And so the kind of boundary is both. I don’t want to be interrupted. That feels like a hard boundary. Like, this is my space and my time. I feel my five wing, like, getting really big. There like, this my quiet little cave. And I think the deeper need or core value that I want to be honored there is the need for peace, the need for focus, and the need for some ability to predict when my attention is going to be drawn somewhere else.

Erin Rocchio [00:17:17]:

These are great remodel while working from home. I totally relate.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:17:23]:

Yeah, I do get a bit spun up to put this in systems perspective. I get myself more exhausted when I think about the fact that I make up a story just because I’m a woman at home. They think that my time is not important and they don’t need to tell me when they’re coming, even though I keep asking. And I get myself super exhausted when I go down that rabbit hole. So I try not to, but it’s there. Okay, so that’s my step two, my deeper need. Number three, how to make the clear request so that my need is recognized. I definitely see how I could be doing this more effectively and with less, I think, like, not presuming defeat at the onset. Right. So I need to know when you will be coming and I need to set aside time to weigh in on things when needed because I have a need to focus during the workday and have my perspective included at the same time. Yeah, it’s like a need for predictability.

Erin Rocchio [00:18:40]:

I’m wondering Canal, just on that note, is there a conversation also you might want to think about with your clients so that they can also be aware?

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:18:49]:

Brilliant. That is so brilliant, Aaron. Because that’s not something I’ve done at all. Instead, I’ve already made it wrong that I have anything at all else going. I can see how that’s like me four moving to two. Everything needs to be about you because that’s what my husband does. He’s down there, he’s working all day, he’s in meetings, but he works at a company. And so he’ll say, hold on 1 second, I’ll be right back. And it doesn’t seem like a big deal, at least that’s what I’ve been imagining. But you’re right, I could just say to my clients, I’m going through a remodel right now. Every now and then I may need to go and address the question. I try to have that be predictable, but it’s not always predictable.

Erin Rocchio [00:19:32]:

Yeah. Yes, it is. Like, expectation setting with your clients. Right. I think the trap that I think coaches, like, we all fall in is we have to be 100% there for the other person at all times and have no needs.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:19:44]:

Yeah, that sounds pretty extreme.

Erin Rocchio [00:19:46]:

That’s so extreme when you say it out loud. But that’s how we all operate, right?

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:19:50]:


Erin Rocchio [00:19:51]:

And one of the big lessons I’ve been going through divorce, and one of the things that’s been really empowering to me is actually saying out loud, like, you know what? I actually am not present today. I need to move our time. I feel terrible doing it, but also otherwise I would be in totally inauthentic and just of service to them, but at my cost.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:20:14]:


Erin Rocchio [00:20:15]:

And that’s also not sustainable, and it’s not honest.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:20:19]:

It’s not good role modeling either, for not good role model. Yeah. I noticed that. Even one of the ones I have melted through is I used to make myself be in Zoom all day long, thinking that I couldn’t dare do it any other way. They need to know that I’m on, and I recognize, especially with the pandemic, nobody wants to be in Zoom all day long, and no one wants their head facing the same direction, not to be able to move 2ft to the left or right. And so I moved my sessions to phone. Sessions. Got way better. People are often surprised, and they say, well, I didn’t know you could do coaching by phone. Well, sure you can. You can do any meeting by phone if you’re fried, and you can’t stay in Zoom. You could actually ask to change your meetings. You could go on a walk during a meeting. People are like, well, go on a walk during a meeting.

Erin Rocchio [00:21:13]:

I can’t tell you how many walking coaching calls I have. The best difficult when you’re trying to take notes, which I do. I want my clients to be walking, and I sometimes want to have the ability to walk around my house and grab tea while we’re doing it. And that’s okay.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:21:29]:

Yeah. I’ve got my coaching fanny pack. I put it on with my notebook. I can pause where I want. I can walk around in the shallow end of the pool yesterday.

Erin Rocchio [00:21:38]:

Oh, my God.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:21:38]:

No. We can be flexible. We can still get things done.

Erin Rocchio [00:21:41]:

I think the big point I’m hearing from you is that and this is true for anybody who’s going through burnout is that we need to include ourselves in the work. So it can’t just be everybody else gets core values, and everybody else gets boundaries, and everybody else gets my attention and presence. But you also need your attention and presence and care.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:22:07]:

It’s so incredible. I just continue to find areas where despite me deeply valuing being allowed, or I keep finding areas where I’m like, oh, my gosh, I totally was not allowing myself right there. So thank you. That was a really great practice. I think that that would be one that I could even include in just my morning journaling or even sit and have a cup of coffee and think through this. And I know that a lot of the practices in here, like you said, a lot of them really only take three to five minutes or could even integrate some of these into like, a 1 minute pause completely.

Erin Rocchio [00:22:48]:

Some of them are well suited for a weekend where you’ve got more time, and some of them are like, literally go step outside, have some deep breaths in nature, come back in easy, and yet really transformative.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:23:00]:

Well, a big takeaway I’m getting here is addressing burnout is something that we ought not have any shame around. And in fact, when we address our burnout, we are being of service to others. But it’s important to do it not just to be of service to others, but to see ourselves as part of that systemic whole, especially as leaders. No one wants to follow a burnt out leader. And people can tell. I mean, we have mirror neurons, can see someone’s face, and even if they’re hiding it with all their might, you can just feel in your energy where they are.

Erin Rocchio [00:23:43]:

Yeah. I think we have a fundamental desire, whether we’ll say it out loud or not, we all want to be whole in every space we’re in. We want to bring our full self, we want to reach our full potential. Life is short. Like, we want it all. We want to do that with people we care about on causes we care about. And I think we’re all waking up to the fact that bringing only part of ourself or excluding ourselves, not allowing our whole self to be there, actually is a detriment to our performance and our impact, particularly when we hold power. And so the simple thing that I just want to underscore what you said is like, including yourself in your service, in your care. And you just modeled that beautifully, Camille. So well done.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:24:35]:

Well, thank you so much for being here. Aaron, we’re going to link to your website and the resources that you mentioned in our show notes, as well as to a link where you can get your own anygram burnout card deck with these sustainable practices to make it really easy and inviting. I love having decks around so that I can be continually reminded in my environment of the opportunity to pause and take time for myself. And it’s simple, it’s easy. We like ease. Thanks for being here. It’s always lovely to spend time with you.

Erin Rocchio [00:25:10]:

Sure you’re going to be well, my friend. Good to see you. Thank you.

Dr. Caneel Joyce [00:25:14]:

You too. Bye. Bye.

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